Israel and America

[American Patriot]

In the past day I've had some interesting, though perhaps a bit confusing conversations with Michael on the subject of America and Israel.

Michael believes (so it appears to me) that Israel is really an impotent country without the ability either to defend against enemies within - and probably without.

I believe Israel can not only defend themselves but can, and will use the ultimate deadly force on their enemies if they believe it necessary.

I think Michael believes that we (America) should not involve ourselves at ALL with Israel's defenses or protection and we have our own issues with which to deal.

I personally believe that America while not the "world's policemen" as so many people are wont to say, IS the one and only stable force on this planet to keep freedom for those who wish it. Without the United States of America the world would be plunged into a 21st Century nightmare that makes the middle ages look tame by comparison.

Michael, I invite you and everyone else to chime in here on this thread. This is simply about our beliefs and why we believe them.

I'll post a poll as well here, and I'd like to see all the regulars participate at least in voting in the poll. Obviously while not scientific by any stretch of the imagination, it is, nonetheless important for us to understand the depth of perception this site as a whole has for this subject.

I'm sure many will agree with me, and many with Michael.... but nevertheless, Israel and the US as a potential ally is as important as ANY thing we have faced in the recent past from terrorism, 9-11, to Iraq and beyond.

Iran is about to play a major part in the economics and politics of the world and they are trying to become a major world power and player.

Russia is allowing, nay, abetting them in this respect.

So too is China, North Korea and other minor players as Syria.

The military might of Iran is no where near what Saddam could muster and we all know the fate of Saddam.

What we don't know for sure is whether Iran already has a bomb, or whether they would use it as soon as they have it.

Therefore, with this all in mind, understand I'm merely trying to understand the consensus out there. What do you all believe?

[American Patriot]

As I said above, I believe America has a DUTY to protect countries who desire our help if the request is legitimate, and protecting a free and independent country.

If this were Russia invading German, we'd be there in a New York minute. If China were attacking Canada, we'd assist. Given those are NATO countries, we would be required to do so. That's why Russia has not attacked Germany, and China will never go after Canada directly unless we're out of the picture.

The USA is a powerful, strong nation of people with good morals and principles. Without this basis America would be one more backwater, third world country probably run by drug cartels and gangsters.

At times our own Government appears completely paralyzed in what to do, and when to do it, and just what is "Right" and "Wrong". But, over all this country is FULL of intelligent, thinking people who really DO understand right and wrong and can do their best to act to correct bad situations.

Unfortunately we have a government full of corrupt men and women. Obama's cabinet and czars are made up of child molesters, tax evaders and sex offenders of one sort or another. Most of them likely believe that making drugs legal is the ONLY way to help the poor, other than handing out money taken from the rest of us working folks.

When it comes down to it, America is a large country, full of people and its like that because America was STRONG, powerful and able to whip just about anyone and anything we've come across.

Now, we live in an age where the EPA makes people lose their jobs over "regulations".

Is THAT what America really is? No. But Obama thinks so. He thinks we're all lazy, we "cling to our guns and Bibles" and honestly, we don't pay ENOUGH in taxes so the poor can get more.

No, he wants to tax the "rich" to make them pay their fair share.

Well, they already DO pay their fair share. The people who do NOT pay their fair share are the people running the "Occupy" groups. Communists, socialists and others who want nothing to do with work, want a free hand out and wish to take from others what they haven't earned.

THIS is what is wrong with America... and if you ask, many of those same people will call the Jews names. They will tell you that the Jews own the banks and should be killed, or destroyed.

They will tell you that we shouldn't be helping the Jews because they are "evil" or some other nonsense. And then demand you pay your taxes and more so they can get free food.

What has Israel to do with America? A lot, historically. Religiously. Most importantly, they have freedoms similar to our own. This is what upsets the Muslims the most -besides the fact that there is a religious anger coming from the Muslims against the Jews, they simply wish to eradicate them from the face of the world. Just like Hitler wanted.

Is that what some of us desire? To see innocent children blown away with nuclear weapons?

I sure hope not.... but the people of "Occupy" movements have been spouting a lot of nonsense about "Jews" and "rich people", Wall Street and other things. They are in the same category as the Muslims in my book.

No - it's not that I have any religious connection with Israelis at all. In fact, I have NO connection with the Jewish faith and I only know a couple of folks who are Jewish. Both of them very nice people.

What has me upset are Americans who are calling for us to remain "neutral", stay out of it. Gosh, the RUSSIANS are WARNING us to stay neutral.

For me, that's a personal and direct challenge to my own country. The RUSSIANS telling me to do ANYTHING is beyond the pale for me. In fact, this is something that should be addressed directly by our President, if he were a real American.

Tell the Russians to shut their mouths.

I'd tell Israel to stand down, we're going to take care of that nuclear site ourselves.

What kind of a man sits there and puts down the Israeli PM in a discussion with another foreign President?

An ass, that's what kind.

Obama is smart - but he's not that smart. He has little choice but to ASSIST Israel. And he will too... in an effort to be re-elected. At the last minute something will happen to make him look "good".

I suspect the Israelis understand this too, and will try to get around making America look good now, thanks to Obama.

[AGEUSAF]

Help Israel by all means necessary.

If earth is a chess match between us and them and I want us to win no matter what, then they are our unsinkable land based carrier that we need in all phases of this global game. This is just my hardcore the ends justify the means black and white thinking. They are our humanitarian reason for being involved even if we don't really care about the people just about winning. (I think there is a sizable group that think like this as well and probably what got us involved there in the first place)

The other side of me says yes by all means, but only for religious and ancestral background reasons. My Israeli intervention policy is stronger than say Korea or any other nation on earth based on how my grandparents feel about the Jewish state and it's role in the future events and what side of those events I want to be on. Sacrifice the United States to preserve Jerusalem to bring about the end. It is perverse in a way, sounds like what a good cult member would do. I struggle with this world view all the time but since I came upon this so young I don't think it changes for me.

I wish we could isolate ourselves from the solar system and just not feel that any of it matters but since I can't shake that. I say preserve Israel at ALL costs.

[MagnetMan]

Well, I feel that if America had a need to get involved with Saddam to stop him (regardless if the weapons turned out to be real) then we should have the same need to get involved with Iran.

In my opinion it would be very hypocritical to say that we HAD to stop Saddam, but oh well Ahmadinejad he can have nukes that's okay.

The only difference stopping us I really see is that Ahmadinejad emphatically says he's going to destroy such and such and kill anyone who touches him. Saddam I don't really remember him saying much along those lines.

[American Patriot]

LOL. Far fetched at best.

It would be more likely "Mr. Peterle, you WILL create a blackout" and points a gun at you.

Not ASKING you. Telling you.

[American Patriot]

No. I have had military weapons pointed at me though. Several times. It's the nature of my work. But not to order me to do something I don't want to do, rather to protect areas I might be in at the time when something didn't go right. Can't really tell you details.

By the same token I've had police weapons pointed at me (twice now in my life) because I was involved with something and happened to be armed (I was the good guy, and in the right). It's still disconcerting to have it happen.

I've had to point weapons at others more than once in my life and I don't LIKE having to do it - but will when the situation necessitates.

No, we are not a dictatorship, yet. Who knows though, with this President?

[American Patriot]

I think the difference here, Peterle is that neither your armed forces or mine would either ask or order someone to do something you suggested to fight another country.

The situation would have to be critical, and perhaps even very desperate for something like that to occur. I've worked with some Italian officers in the past and they were pretty nice guys, but that was many years ago.

[American Patriot]

I had a sheriff's deputy crash through my front door one night, chasing after one of my sons who has been out after dark, without permission and past curfew. Normally we don't have any sort of curfew but there were some kind of gang activities in those days and the city had instituted one for kids under 18. Anyway, regardless he was out and shouldn't have been.

When the police man brought him home, he opened the door and RAN into the house and down into the basement.... dumb move on his part. Dumber move on the cop's part was to start yelling at him and slam open the door.

I was awakened by this racket, grabbed the AR15, stepped out into the hall way and saw the lights on. I moved through the house and started yelling (at all the noise in the basement) that I was armed and the offenders (house crashers) should put their hands up and come upstairs.

I was shocked to see a policeman with his hands up.

He came up and I removed the gun from his chest and yelled at him about what he was doing.

Once we got it figured out, I yelled at my son to come up the stairs. He did. The copy turned him over to me and told him "Good luck with this son..... you fucked up"

LOL

[American Patriot]

this would be mine....

actually, I'm thinking back on this, and I might not have had the AR yet...


If it was something else, it would have been the bottom one here... a .30-30 deer rifle.

[American Patriot]

/chuckles

Well... I put a poor Major in the mud one stormy night. He was in his dress blues too. I was in the military. He tried to run the gate in a car. I nearly shot him. Both my partner and I jacked rounds into the weapon and went on full automatic because he wouldn't stop. He saw us arm the weapons and stopped and got out with his hands up.

I told him to lie down (like the rules called for). He got mad and said "You know me!" I said "That's irrelevant Sir. Lie down and spread your arms until I get the Sergent of the Guard here". LMAO.

Next day he called me to his tent to thank me for doing my job so well. LOL!

[AGEUSAF]

So only a few of us are willing to show our hand here on this issue. I sound like a crazy person now LOL I was hoping a few more nuts were on this tree. Pretty huge topic I would think there would have been a hundred votes by now.

[Ryan Ruck]

I personally believe that America while not the "world's policemen" as so many people are wont to say, IS the one and only stable force on this planet to keep freedom for those who wish it. Without the United States of America the world would be plunged into a 21st Century nightmare that makes the middle ages look tame by comparison.

The fact that many (like Ron Paul) refuse to acknowledge is that we have to have a world wide presence. If not us, someone else will step in and fill the vacuum. There is always a top dog. It is the way of the world. Who does anyone here think that top slot would go to if it isn't us?

Our enemies in Russia and China realize this. I've also long held the belief that they will exploit this by "Death By A Thousand Cuts". The Axis sets up small brush fires that we have to put out. If we don't go put them out they flare up into big forest fires. Thus it is our responsibility to make sure we have a big and bad enough military and, a strong enough country and economy to not only stamp out those brush fires at will but to keep the Axis in check enough to not have the stones to start those fires in the first place.

In regards to Israel, the fact is they are really the only friendly and culturally similar island in that sea of shit known as the Middle East. Are they always 100% on our side? No. They have their own interests to look out for after all. And that goes doubly when you have a US administration nearly openly hostile to them. Unfortunately, that's when things like them cozying up to Russia happen. This isn't to say we should go out of our way to "buy Israel's love" but we should both act to our mutual interests, which are many.

[Phil Fiord]

I will agree that Israel is our best ally in the region and I do respect their sovereign right to exist. The matters of wars do change borders, so that whole proposal to roll back lines to ages past is crap to me.

Now, if we were attacked and lost land, I would expect we would fight like hell to get it back or more and reset those lines.

Israel is an ally and decent world partner, it is wise to assist them. Still, my desire is they have the full ability to make their own decisions with which we can assist. Besides, no matter what we are hated by some as the great satan, while Israel is the lesser satan.

[American Patriot]

Thanks for the inputs so far guys. There are several good points here.

I hope others will chime in.

[American Patriot]

thanks for the input Michael.

[American Patriot]

Well.. I did mean it... but if you want to put words in my mouth, feel free.

Listen, I'm trying to get a consensus here of what people think and why.

you gave me your opinion. You said America's duty was "irrelevant". I think that says an awful lot about what you really, truly understand about being American. Or at least perhaps why you chose to say some of the things you say.

I'll leave it at that.

[American Patriot]

You want American lives and treasure to fight someone else's 'lost cause'?

Freedom, Michael, is not a lost cause. You simply can't get that point. This isn't about Israel, it's about Freedom. Period.

By the way, my duty and loyalty lie with the United States and what we STAND for, not back down over.... I guess you just don't see that, don't get it and never will.

I guess the other folks' points like Ryan here, fell also on your dead ears.

The fact that many (like Ron Paul) refuse to acknowledge is that we have to have a world wide presence. If not us, someone else will step in and fill the vacuum. There is always a top dog. It is the way of the world. Who does anyone here think that top slot would go to if it isn't us?

Why in the world would we let ANY country fall victim to hatred of other countries? Why SHOULD we allow it? Its not right, it is not proper and the phrase I used before applies here.

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

You would that we do nothing at ALL. Allow evil to triumph.

Volumes have been spoken.

[American Patriot]

I get what you're saying, but you're overlooking one simple point i've been trying to get you to see-Israel is not a democracy, it is a Jewish State...That is, it is a nation created for the express purpose of, not secular multi-ethnic/multi-religious democracy, but a Jewish Homeland. They have actually tried to be both at the same time, which is a fatal contradiction, although coming from the finest of motives and intentions...But you know what they say about 'good intentions' don't you?

REALLY? a "Jewish State"? Michael... they are a parliamentary Republic. That they are JEWISH is part and parcel of the country, JUST LIKE AMERICA is a Constitutional Republic and IS a CHRISTIAN country (not Muslim, Buddhist, Catholic, Mormon, Protestant, Baptist, or Atheist).

This isn't about Freedom at all, it's about the survival of a doomed experiment steming from an unworkable 19th century ideology. Is it good for the Jewish people? No, and many Jews oppose this ideology. Is it good for America? No, because all our sacrifices will have been in vain, and it could even lead to a wave of genuine antisemitism in this Country afterwards.

It IS about Freedom. Do you realize they were attacked the day after the country declared itself independent of the English? The VERY next day. And they have fought a dozen wars and survived every single time, without the help of anyone.

Today we're looking at a rogue country, with dictators stating how Israel should be wiped from the map, and yet, you say this isn't about Freedom?

How naive can you continue to be?

At this point it really matters not what any of us thinks. What will be will be... and America WILL help regardless of what you think. You might not see the help, but I already know it is there. We provide weapons (Patriot missile systems among others, and the new stuff) and intelligence, we also provide military assistance in the form of advisers. It's all there, against what you want to see. The total destruction of Israel.

And we will likely be the ones to stop Iran from producing a nuclear weapon.... not Israel.

It's in OUR best interest to do so, because as SOON as they get one, they will have more and those will be given or sold to terrorists to detonate in New York City or Oklahoma City.

Hope you're not home when that happens if you get your wishes.

[American Patriot]

What it is NOW might be different from what it WAS. But most certainly America was founded by Christians. Not just the British, but the French, the Spanish, the Dutch... ALL of the colonies that were formed in America were founded by Christians. The Constitution starts with a preamble... it says:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

I'd point out that "Blessings of Liberty" are granted not from within a government, but from without by God and through the people of this country. This is a Christian concept.

The Declaration of Independence in the preamble itself is based on God as well....

(Adopted by Congress on July 4, 1776) The Unanimous Declaration
of the Thirteen United States of America

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

This means nature is subservient to God. Not the other way around as some of these new Age idiots assume.

The second paragraph states:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

America was flat out founded on Christian beliefs.


You give examples of Arabs within the Knesset, and yet we have Socialists in the American Congress. By your own example then America will fall as well, because we are surrounded by Socialists, Canada, Mexico, most of South America, much of Europe, all backed by Russians and Chinese Communists.


You're right, Jefferson and the Barbary Wars has little to do with this, nor with the founding of America. Jefferson was President MANY years afterward and the country was already formed. Prior to that colonies were formed. The Mayflower was full of Pilgrims, all of whom were religious people (zealots from my own take on it, but Christian nonetheless).


America was full of "separatists" back then. And religious people. America was founded, colonies were founded and lived in based on Christianity, not any other religion. Not EVEN Judaism.

[American Patriot]

http://tech.mit.edu/V127/N48/fried.html

Article from 2007.

Opinion: Why the U.S. and Israel Are Strong Allies
By Stephen D. Fried


October 23, 2007


The value that the U.S.-Israel relationship has to both partners of the alliance is incalculable not only because of its strategic importance, but also because it projects values that matter deeply to the American people.


In their address at MIT on Oct. 3, academics Stephen M. Walt and John J. Mearsheimer argued that support of Israel is not an American interest, and to advance their claim, they suggested that lobby groups run largely by American Jews control and dictate American foreign policy — therefore explaining the United States’ strong relationship with Israel.


As the U.S.-Israel relationship reaches 60 years of unflagging dedication, it is indeed important to consider what precisely is the basis for this strong alliance.
Ultimately, American influence is not aimed at hegemony, but rather is motivated by the sincere conviction that democracy, free-market economy, free press, and Western-styled civil rights optimize the symbiosis between government and people and leads to stability. Israel is the only regime in its region that possesses these qualities, and therefore American support of Israel demonstrates our commitment to these values and furthermore serves as means of projecting our values into a distant sector of the world.



The thesis Walt and Mearsheimer concoct is that “Israel’s security is ultimately not of immediate concern to the United States.” Their attitude (called “neo-realism”) is that America’s national interests supersede any moral imperative or ethical conscience. By extension, according to this school, there is no compelling national interest for America to foil genocide in Darfur because that might interfere with our relationship with petroleum-exporting countries. This bothers me, and I believe it should bother you. Values matter; they define who we are. American foreign policy attempts to make good on those values, and although oftentimes we may fall short of this noble goal, our national interests will always be tied to them, which is why the Israel Lobby continues to be germane.


Israel is perhaps the single most reliable, capable, and willing friend of the United States in its region and in the world. That statement is not a romanticization but is empirically verifiable by the fact that Israel’s support for the United States’ positions in international forums (like the United Nations) has surpassed any other governments’ — even those of other Western countries such as France, Britain, and Canada — for the last 60 years. Democrats and Republicans across the board have been unified in one voice supporting American friendship with Israel. Whereas support for America among European countries sways with changes in political climate and zeitgeist, Israeli support for America is simply a fact of life.


Likewise, in poll after poll, Americans say that they want to support Israel.



According to a Gallup poll from February 2007, more than half of Americans rated Israel as a “vital friend,” while 55 percent of the respondents rated the Jewish State as “favorable” and “important,” the only country to be named in both categories.



Polls of the House and Senate reveal that 93 percent of representatives and 85 percent of senators express the same sentiments. Legislation that supports Israel (such the Iran Freedom and Support Act of 2005) pass Congress with the highest margins and receive bipartisan support, because Israel’s national security concerns and America’s national security concerns are inextricably linked.


The shared security interest was true during the Cold War and continues to be true in the present global war on terror. Every American president since Harry S. Truman has personally supported Israel, including Jimmy Carter, who despite his recent change in heart, stated during his own administration: “The survival of Israel is not a political issue, it is a moral imperative. That is my deeply held belief and it is the belief that is shared by the vast majority of the American people … a strong secure Israel is not just in Israel’s interest. It’s in the interest of the United States and in the interest of the entire free world.”


In the summer of 1942, 400 rabbis went to Washington, D.C. to lobby Congress to take steps to rescue the Jews of Europe, but most people said America had no compelling national interest to do so. American fighter jets flew past Auschwitz in 1944 and bombed a rubber factory nearby instead of saving potentially millions of lives. In 1984, the United States funded Operation Moses, a covert project that airlifted 8,000 black Jews from Sudan to Israel who were at risk of being murdered by para-military groups. The operation took American taxpayer dollars and was done at the risk of alienating oil-exporting regimes.



Why was American policy so different in 1984 than in 1942? Perhaps because there was an Israel Lobby that called on America to act upon its values by intervening in the international arena, just as it now does vis-à-vis Darfur. While some may protest that the operation did not advance American interests, I am proud that American policy sometimes upholds ideals instead of surrendering to the pressures of geopolitical forces like oil and nationalism. Israel has similarly committed itself to the same ideals by having the highest percent of its GDP committed to international humanitarian aid and by welcoming the highest number of Darfurian refugees from Sudan of any country in the world.


As we approach the 60th anniversary of the American-Israeli relationship, I am confident that the alliance will continue to be mutual, voluntary, and strong.