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Israel and America
In the past day I've had some interesting, though perhaps a bit confusing conversations with Michael on the subject of America and Israel.
Michael believes (so it appears to me) that Israel is really an impotent country without the ability either to defend against enemies within - and probably without.
I believe Israel can not only defend themselves but can, and will use the ultimate deadly force on their enemies if they believe it necessary.
I think Michael believes that we (America) should not involve ourselves at ALL with Israel's defenses or protection and we have our own issues with which to deal.
I personally believe that America while not the "world's policemen" as so many people are wont to say, IS the one and only stable force on this planet to keep freedom for those who wish it. Without the United States of America the world would be plunged into a 21st Century nightmare that makes the middle ages look tame by comparison.
Michael, I invite you and everyone else to chime in here on this thread. This is simply about our beliefs and why we believe them.
I'll post a poll as well here, and I'd like to see all the regulars participate at least in voting in the poll. Obviously while not scientific by any stretch of the imagination, it is, nonetheless important for us to understand the depth of perception this site as a whole has for this subject.
I'm sure many will agree with me, and many with Michael.... but nevertheless, Israel and the US as a potential ally is as important as ANY thing we have faced in the recent past from terrorism, 9-11, to Iraq and beyond.
Iran is about to play a major part in the economics and politics of the world and they are trying to become a major world power and player.
Russia is allowing, nay, abetting them in this respect.
So too is China, North Korea and other minor players as Syria.
The military might of Iran is no where near what Saddam could muster and we all know the fate of Saddam.
What we don't know for sure is whether Iran already has a bomb, or whether they would use it as soon as they have it.
Therefore, with this all in mind, understand I'm merely trying to understand the consensus out there. What do you all believe?
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Re: Israel and America
As I said above, I believe America has a DUTY to protect countries who desire our help if the request is legitimate, and protecting a free and independent country.
If this were Russia invading German, we'd be there in a New York minute. If China were attacking Canada, we'd assist. Given those are NATO countries, we would be required to do so. That's why Russia has not attacked Germany, and China will never go after Canada directly unless we're out of the picture.
The USA is a powerful, strong nation of people with good morals and principles. Without this basis America would be one more backwater, third world country probably run by drug cartels and gangsters.
At times our own Government appears completely paralyzed in what to do, and when to do it, and just what is "Right" and "Wrong". But, over all this country is FULL of intelligent, thinking people who really DO understand right and wrong and can do their best to act to correct bad situations.
Unfortunately we have a government full of corrupt men and women. Obama's cabinet and czars are made up of child molesters, tax evaders and sex offenders of one sort or another. Most of them likely believe that making drugs legal is the ONLY way to help the poor, other than handing out money taken from the rest of us working folks.
When it comes down to it, America is a large country, full of people and its like that because America was STRONG, powerful and able to whip just about anyone and anything we've come across.
Now, we live in an age where the EPA makes people lose their jobs over "regulations".
Is THAT what America really is? No. But Obama thinks so. He thinks we're all lazy, we "cling to our guns and Bibles" and honestly, we don't pay ENOUGH in taxes so the poor can get more.
No, he wants to tax the "rich" to make them pay their fair share.
Well, they already DO pay their fair share. The people who do NOT pay their fair share are the people running the "Occupy" groups. Communists, socialists and others who want nothing to do with work, want a free hand out and wish to take from others what they haven't earned.
THIS is what is wrong with America... and if you ask, many of those same people will call the Jews names. They will tell you that the Jews own the banks and should be killed, or destroyed.
They will tell you that we shouldn't be helping the Jews because they are "evil" or some other nonsense. And then demand you pay your taxes and more so they can get free food.
What has Israel to do with America? A lot, historically. Religiously. Most importantly, they have freedoms similar to our own. This is what upsets the Muslims the most -besides the fact that there is a religious anger coming from the Muslims against the Jews, they simply wish to eradicate them from the face of the world. Just like Hitler wanted.
Is that what some of us desire? To see innocent children blown away with nuclear weapons?
I sure hope not.... but the people of "Occupy" movements have been spouting a lot of nonsense about "Jews" and "rich people", Wall Street and other things. They are in the same category as the Muslims in my book.
No - it's not that I have any religious connection with Israelis at all. In fact, I have NO connection with the Jewish faith and I only know a couple of folks who are Jewish. Both of them very nice people.
What has me upset are Americans who are calling for us to remain "neutral", stay out of it. Gosh, the RUSSIANS are WARNING us to stay neutral.
For me, that's a personal and direct challenge to my own country. The RUSSIANS telling me to do ANYTHING is beyond the pale for me. In fact, this is something that should be addressed directly by our President, if he were a real American.
Tell the Russians to shut their mouths.
I'd tell Israel to stand down, we're going to take care of that nuclear site ourselves.
What kind of a man sits there and puts down the Israeli PM in a discussion with another foreign President?
An ass, that's what kind.
Obama is smart - but he's not that smart. He has little choice but to ASSIST Israel. And he will too... in an effort to be re-elected. At the last minute something will happen to make him look "good".
I suspect the Israelis understand this too, and will try to get around making America look good now, thanks to Obama.
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Re: Israel and America
Help Israel by all means necessary.
If earth is a chess match between us and them and I want us to win no matter what, then they are our unsinkable land based carrier that we need in all phases of this global game. This is just my hardcore the ends justify the means black and white thinking. They are our humanitarian reason for being involved even if we don't really care about the people just about winning. (I think there is a sizable group that think like this as well and probably what got us involved there in the first place)
The other side of me says yes by all means, but only for religious and ancestral background reasons. My Israeli intervention policy is stronger than say Korea or any other nation on earth based on how my grandparents feel about the Jewish state and it's role in the future events and what side of those events I want to be on. Sacrifice the United States to preserve Jerusalem to bring about the end. It is perverse in a way, sounds like what a good cult member would do. I struggle with this world view all the time but since I came upon this so young I don't think it changes for me.
I wish we could isolate ourselves from the solar system and just not feel that any of it matters but since I can't shake that. I say preserve Israel at ALL costs.
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Re: Israel and America
Well, I feel that if America had a need to get involved with Saddam to stop him (regardless if the weapons turned out to be real) then we should have the same need to get involved with Iran.
In my opinion it would be very hypocritical to say that we HAD to stop Saddam, but oh well Ahmadinejad he can have nukes that's okay.
The only difference stopping us I really see is that Ahmadinejad emphatically says he's going to destroy such and such and kill anyone who touches him. Saddam I don't really remember him saying much along those lines.
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Re: Israel and America
LOL. Far fetched at best.
It would be more likely "Mr. Peterle, you WILL create a blackout" and points a gun at you.
Not ASKING you. Telling you.
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Re: Israel and America
No. I have had military weapons pointed at me though. Several times. It's the nature of my work. But not to order me to do something I don't want to do, rather to protect areas I might be in at the time when something didn't go right. Can't really tell you details.
By the same token I've had police weapons pointed at me (twice now in my life) because I was involved with something and happened to be armed (I was the good guy, and in the right). It's still disconcerting to have it happen.
I've had to point weapons at others more than once in my life and I don't LIKE having to do it - but will when the situation necessitates.
No, we are not a dictatorship, yet. Who knows though, with this President?
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Re: Israel and America
I think the difference here, Peterle is that neither your armed forces or mine would either ask or order someone to do something you suggested to fight another country.
The situation would have to be critical, and perhaps even very desperate for something like that to occur. I've worked with some Italian officers in the past and they were pretty nice guys, but that was many years ago.
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Re: Israel and America
I had a sheriff's deputy crash through my front door one night, chasing after one of my sons who has been out after dark, without permission and past curfew. Normally we don't have any sort of curfew but there were some kind of gang activities in those days and the city had instituted one for kids under 18. Anyway, regardless he was out and shouldn't have been.
When the police man brought him home, he opened the door and RAN into the house and down into the basement.... dumb move on his part. Dumber move on the cop's part was to start yelling at him and slam open the door.
I was awakened by this racket, grabbed the AR15, stepped out into the hall way and saw the lights on. I moved through the house and started yelling (at all the noise in the basement) that I was armed and the offenders (house crashers) should put their hands up and come upstairs.
I was shocked to see a policeman with his hands up.
He came up and I removed the gun from his chest and yelled at him about what he was doing.
Once we got it figured out, I yelled at my son to come up the stairs. He did. The copy turned him over to me and told him "Good luck with this son..... you fucked up"
LOL
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Re: Israel and America
this would be mine....
actually, I'm thinking back on this, and I might not have had the AR yet...
http://www.transasianaxis.com/vb/pic...&pictureid=279
If it was something else, it would have been the bottom one here... a .30-30 deer rifle.http://www.transasianaxis.com/vb/pic...&pictureid=293